The Dark Side (permanent post)

[annathecrow]

Welcome to the Dark Side. This post’s comment section is dedicated to all the angry, inflammatory, defamatory and otherwise outright negative things you might want to express. Not that saying negative things isn’t allowed in the weekly chat corners, but… you know how you sometimes just Have Thoughts about something, and you don’t feel like you can talk about it because everyone around you seems to love it? Those go here.

 

Some rules:

• No personal attacks.
• If you don’t want people replying to you, mention it in the comment.
• Follow the general comm rules.
• …that’s it, I think.

 

Comments

[fleurviolette]

Some things I don’t understand from LF.

- the sequel trilogy. Aka how to ruin a beloved movie franchise in 5 years or less

- how EU writers kept pairing Luke with bland character love interests when Mara Jade was right there. Luke and Mara could have been the Clark and Lois of Star Wars! An established couple from the start??

[annathecrow]

Can't say about Mara Jade, as I've read very little EU books from that era, but sequels... oh, Sequels. I wonder if this is how OT fans felt when the Prequels came out.

I'm in a special level of hell, because I genuinely like (most of) the ST characters and how the story was set up in Force Awakens. Only then it went in a direction I don't like at all, and now it's what it is. Ugh.

Ah well, that's what fanfiction is for, I guess. I've holed myself up in the Prequels fandom for now, and once I feel less "bleh" about certain things I'll AU the heck out of it all, and I'll be happy.

[fleurviolette]

I recommend watching The People vs. George Lucas, which is a documentary about a portion of the OT fans’ negative opinions on the prequels. Some of those opinions are tied heavily to nostalgia. Tho the prequels were different at the time, yet still a continuation of the story from the creator himself.

Now, the negative opinions on the sequels are different, since the creator wasn’t really involved in the sequels. I’m still shocked that Disney didn’t use his sequel treatments, nor planned out the sequels in the first place. Though the emotions remain the same, just amplified with social media.

Personally, I liked most of the ST characters in the TFA, but did not like the direction they were taken in with the other two movies. Heck, even one of them was replaced by another ‘tokenized’ character in the second movie, who was later sidelined in the third movie. Yikes. More importantly, they could have been written in a way that didn’t dimish or undermine the achievements of the original legacy characters.

Anyway, yes, sw fan fiction never ceases to entertain me. The fans create the ‘what if’s’. And we’ll always have the original six films and the EU. (Although, since I’m new to the EU, I’m mainly sticking to Zahn’s books. There was also drama over some authors writing Mara Jade terribly ooc that Timothy Zahn became very protective of her and his original sw characters, that he was hesitant to bring them into the current disney canon)

[annathecrow]

That doc sounds interesting, I might look it up.

Otherwise... I don't really think that Lucas would have done a better job with writing ST, but the rest of it I agree on 100%.

I've been in wondering whether Zahn will bring Mara into current canon, considering he's writing new books for it. So far it looks like he's just (re)doing Thrawn.

[fleurviolette]

I’d still be curious with reading a draft of his ST treatments. At least they’re part of his original vision, even if I might not like all of it.

I see it as 50/50. I wouldn’t be too surprised if they didn’t bring Mara Jade, but I’d be very surprised if they did bring her in properly. As long as Zahn is consulted if she’s brought back.

[annathecrow]

Yeah, reading what Lucas planned for the sequels would be interesting - I remember him talking about them back when Prequels came out, he must have had some ideas.

[fleurviolette]

This is sort of on topic, but there’s going to be a six part documentary series in the works about Lucas. Perhaps he could share more of his ideas about his own sequel treatments if he were to be involved.

I did see SWT cover the Star Wars archive books where Lucas mentioned some concepts for his sequels: Luke rebuilds the Jedi Order, while Leia re-establishes the New Republic. Darth Maul is the main villain while Darth Talon is the secondary villain (like Vader). I’d be interested in reading the treatments or drafts of the scripts. What a shame that the Mouse threw it away for their own hubris.

[astromech1138]

I've finally decided to look at what was going on over on the dark side so please excuse my resurrecting an old thread!

I wonder if this is how OT fans felt when the Prequels came out.

Oh, yes. And we had already recently been burned by the special editions, which had been released not long before the prequels. The special editions were nice to have, but when GL decided that that was ALL we could ever have, and that the original versions would never be available again, that soured a lot of people.

Anyway I remember leaving the theater after TPM and feeling profoundly disappointed. I don't know that I saw the other two in the theater; I think I've seen them all two or three times only. I did a rewatch recently, because I wanted to compare them to the sequels, and for all their many faults, they are nowhere near as bad as the sequels IMO. The prequels at least still feel like Star Wars, if done badly. The sequels simply don't feel like SW.

[annathecrow]

"special editions" -- Lucas' tinkering with SW baffles me. I don't know of any other movie (or other piece of media, for that matter) that would get re-edited this way.

Ep I being disappointing -- yeah, I can see that. It's a very different movie to the OT.

"The sequels simply don't feel like SW" -- that's interesting! Do you think you could explain it a bit more? I've seen this around a lot but I just... ugh. Do you know that feeling when someone tells you something and you think they're right, but you can't see it? That. I've read a review of TFA that pointed out how tech-oriented it is, and how that isn't SW - do you mean that?

[astromech1138]

I'm guessing GL had too many "yes" men around him during the prequels. He does really well when there are people pushing back, and when he has strong-willed collaborators. He's great at overall vision, film editing (although I think these films weren't cut very well--where the hell is Padme's story in III? Why didn't we get to see the Rebellion form?!), worldbuilding, but he's not great a dialogue (so much cringe!) or character development. The bad, overused CGI really does not help. Granted, this was a very hard story to tell--people like optimistic endings, and the entire trilogy was about Anakin's fall--but it wasn't well executed, to me, and it was salt in the wound when they replaced Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen at the end of RotJ. At that point, a viewer like me is just reminded every time they watch the OT how much they dislike the prequels!

The sequels feel more like Marvel movies to me, and frankly I just don't like those. For instance, in the scene in TFA when Poe faces Ben (I can't even remember his villain name!!), they crouch down and then Poe does the whole "who speaks first?" gambit, Ben loses credibility as a villain instantly. Who could feel any threat from him after that? And the tone was all wrong--Star Wars is campy, sure, but it takes itself seriously.

In both cases, I really dislike how small they make the SW universe. It feels so expansive in the OT, but both other projects had this strange compulsion (perhaps borne out of a feeling of inferiority or lack of confidence in their material) to tie in every little thing to the OT, to the point where it causes problems when you watch the OT. (How does it make sense for Obi-wan to say he doesn't remember R2? And where did R2's jetpack go? That could've come in handy.)

LOL I have fully embraced the power of the dark side! At least there's plenty of opportunity for "fix-it" fics with both.

[annathecrow]

sequels feel like Marvel movies, the Ben vs Poe scene -- OMG I get it!!! You're so right, I can't imagine OT, or even PT, clowning with their villain like that. It really does feel more like Guardians of the Galaxy than SW. Whow. Now I feel like I need to rewatch the whole damn saga just to see where else that shows up.

"a very hard story to tell" -- absolutely. And I agree, it wasn't done well. I mean, I wouldn't love that story even if it was done excellently (if I want to see a tragedy, I open the news or a history book), but it did deserve better. At least the dialogue, ffs.

fix-its -- haha, yes. I admit, this is what draws me to Star Wars... or at least to being actively fannish about Star Wars. If the canon had everything I wanted, what would I write fic about?

[astromech1138]

It's really a shame because there was so much going for the sequels (getting the three heroes to come back! Finn's amazing storyline! Finn/Poe's friendship!) -- and then they ended up throwing away every good idea/possibility.

The prequels have their faults but I can't be mad at them the same way lol

[annathecrow]

I was so excited to see Rey become a Jedi and save the day. When TFA came out, people were complaining that it was a rehash of OT, but I just realized as we talked about RotJ that I absolutely wanted that: a big "nobody to hero" story, but with Rey as the protagonist. Instead it felt like I'm getting everything else but that, including a freaking love story.

Honestly, if it really had been an OT rehash with Rey, Poe and Finn in the place of Luke, Leia and Han, I think it would have made for a better story. With Rey and Finn as the "siblings" and a Poe/Finn romance, or even no romance at all.

[astromech1138]

Agreed!! And Finn was such a new and exciting character (at least as introduced in TFA) that a OT rehash would've felt somewhat fresh.

[cephy]

Butting my head in here to say a big heck yes to dislike how small they make the SW universe and strange compulsion to tie in every little thing to the OT, because that whole thing has bugged me for so long now. Why, in an entire galaxy of infinite potential, do we keep getting stories only about the same group of people?

And it's a very good point about Poe's talking back to Ren, I hadn't thought about it quite like that but even for us as viewers, Ren's threat and presence is immediately lowered. It feels like exactly the opposite of how Vader was presented.

[astromech1138]

Have you watched the BOBF Gallery/BTS? Dave Filoni straight up said "SW fans want everything interconnected." No, we do not. That's why season one of the Mandalorian was so successful--it was in the SW universe but not really connected to any other characters or events we knew. I hate knowing eventually I'm going to have to dip because I'd like to like new SW content!

[cephy]

I haven't watched it, but ugh. NO, WE DO NOT.

I... am somewhat ashamed to admit that I haven't watched Mandalorian yet. Between D+ needing a membership and my generally 'meh' reaction to most new SW content, I just didn't feel the draw. S1 at least it worth a shot, though, it sounds like?

[annathecrow]

Poking in to say that Mandalorian is definitely worth trying. The tone is consistent across both seasons, so if you like the first episode, you're likely to enjoy the whole thing.

[astromech1138]

Late to the party but yes, season 1 of Mando is absolutely worth the watch. This is coming from someone who really only likes the OT. Season 2 starts to tie in with the SW universe, especially the cartoons, but that's not noticeable if you don't know what they're about (I had no idea until I started talking about it with a coworker). And the finale is amazing.

[annathecrow]

"SW fans want everything interconnected" -- ugh. I feel like he's seeing a certain kind of fan reaction and misunderstanding what it actually is. I think people enjoy the way Mandalorian touches the other pieces of SW canon, but that doesn't mean they actually want the story to be tied to everything else! It's more like... a touchstone of sorts: yes, this is Star Wars; moving on. People went feral when Luke showed up, but nobody watched the Mandalorian for Luke - it was just this special moment of "OH LOOK IT'S THAT GUY!".

[astromech1138]

yes yes yes!!! I LOVED that scene, it was so brilliant, but the reason why it was brilliant was it lasted 5 minutes and was done (well, at the time anyway). A big part of me things Mando should've ended there; it would have been a perfect show.

(omg I am so late responding to you! What happened to this summer?!)

[fleurviolette]

Hello again! I think the issue with the critics and fans being critical of the prequels is different from the disney sequels. Some fans didn’t like the original director’s vision vs. a portion of fans not liking a mega corporation/multimedia company buying an ip to churn out movies for profit.

The prequels, in spite of the flaws, was still planned out and part of the creator’s vision. Each movie in the prequel trilogy rhymed with the original trilogy.

Meanwhile the disney sequels are disjointed and nonsensical because there was no concrete plan. The directors cared more about their own visions rather than continuing the story.

[astromech1138]

Oh for sure. The faults of the sequels are overall so much harder to look past than the prequels for a variety of reasons. (Although people were definitely disillusioned with the marketing machine that surrounded the prequels--see the Jar Jar Binks lollipop for instance--or, rather, don't!!) I was just speaking from my personal experience as a SW fan in 1999! And the heartbreak lol.

It's interesting to read JW Rinzler's "Making of" books about the OT because it becomes very clear how collaborative those movies were, and how much a part of their success the collaboration was.