Chat corner 27: Queen

[annathecrow]

Welcome to this week’s chat corner!

Optional prompt

The topic for this week is “Queen’s Shadow, Queen’s Peril and Queen’s Hope”, the three books about Padmé Amidala by E. K. Johnston. (Not to confuse anyone, the last book hasn’t been published yet.)

 

Comments

[annathecrow]

Not that it seems needed lately, but in case you want to straight out hate on something, the Dark Side post is here for you.

[kittywhite]

I literally just ordered these online today during my lunchbreak as I haven’t ever seen them in store for sale. Reviews seem mixed but I’ve been interested in reading them since the announcement so I’ll make up my own mind. Just hope the mail doesn’t take forever to get here!

[annathecrow]

I'd be interested in your thoughts once you've read them :) If you liked the descriptions, I think you'll enjoy them. YMMV, but I don't think there's anything that could make a reader hate Queen's Shadow. Don't know about Queen's Peril, but I figure it'll be the same or better.

[yourlibrarian]

I'm afraid I haven't read them but thought I'd poke my head in to see if anyone else had and what they thought.

Somewhat off topic because Padme hasn't shown up in these stories yet, but I've been enjoying Blue Sunshine's Desert Storm series, having just finished In Crisis (which can be read as a standalone, if you know that Ben has time traveled back and taken Obi-Wan as his padawan). Would recommend.

[annathecrow]

Oh yeah, Desert Storm is really good. I burned out on the series (after Sa Sarad, I think?), but that was a Me Problem and I would definitely recommend it to people. Unless they hated Obi-Wan, I guess, but that seems to be obvious.

My smallest of nitpicks is that the author swings heavily towards the "Mystical Mother" archetype with Shmi Skywalker, but eh, at least it has Shmi.

[yourlibrarian]

Haha, yeah, a lot of Obi-Wan alright. And I agree with what you're saying about Shmi. The idea that the whole Jedi order needs to change itself to be more like Shmi is a little much. I agree with the general idea, which is that its calcification was part of what brought it down, and that they'd become bureaucratic instead of tied into the Force. But I don't see making Shmi (or for that matter, Ben) the new chosen ones is any better a path than tying that to Anakin.

But given I am hungry for long gen fics, this is well written and there's certainly plenty of story to dig into. The section on Geonosis was riveting.

[extrapenguin]

*waltzes in*

Yeah. It's well done, but on the other hand, it's also very much a product of fanon? It has the non-canon Tatooine Slave Culture, the focus on Obi-Wan, thinking that Mandalorians are the coolest, changing the Jedi in ways that aren't necessarily an improvement*, and Wise Mystical Woman Shmi. I would probably have reacted better to it if I had encountered it before I read ten thousand other fixits (time travel and otherwise) involving the same elements in various combinations. By the time I was recced Desert Storm, I was actively seeking out things that used different elements.

* I'm thinking mainly about the limit on padawans. Given the one-on-one nature of the mentorship and the fact Jedi go on dangerous missions, having a one padawan per Master limit is perfectly reasonable.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, I think there's nothing wrong with the one-on-one format of mentorship, and as I think Yoda mentions in the text, not everyone is well suited to be a teacher. Besides, given that Jedis have different roles you're trying to match both personalities as well as mentoring a student into an area they want to be part of.

And I also get being burned out on certain concepts and story styles. I've run into that in other fandoms I've read heavily in. I'm debating unsubbing from the Merlin AO3 feed. OTOH I would love to get a really great story in that fandom, even a shippy one, but OTOH I'm still going through dozens of new work announcements that I am done with.

[extrapenguin]

I'm debating unsubbing from the Merlin AO3 feed. OTOH I would love to get a really great story in that fandom, even a shippy one, but OTOH I'm still going through dozens of new work announcements that I am done with.
My advice is to unsub ASAP, before you get to the "why is everyone writing shitty takes with terrible characterization???" stage where everything starts to suck majorly due to overexposure/feeling out of step with the fandom. You can always return later.

[annathecrow]

Yeah, it's very fanon. I don't consider that a bad thing, but I can see how that might be tedious, after you've read a lot of it. I read it fairly early, so I didn't have that problem. Maybe it would have been different if I've found it now, I do have a solid collection of disliked fanon these days :D

Do you dislike fanon in principle, or just specific things?

[extrapenguin]

Do you dislike fanon in principle, or just specific things?
There are specific things I dislike the moment I see them as well as specific things I dislike when they go from being one person's interesting take to being fanon (Tatooine Slave Culture goes here), but mostly it's the fact that fanon overdosing tends to make fic same-y, and some fanon (like clones speaking Mando'a) is supremely ubiquitous yet completely unsupported in canon. I do enjoy reading the occasional quirky take, but not when all the fic uses the same quirky take, y'know? I also read different fics instead of rereading one fic ad infinitum because I want to see a different take on [a time travel fixit/Mace Windu getting a nap/whatever]. I guess I enjoy novelty and fanon deprives me of that?

I'd also be interested in what you'd consider to be the primary pieces of fanon for the PT/TCW! I have my own ideas, but it's possible I've missed some due to my reading preferences.

[annathecrow]

I guess I enjoy novelty and fanon deprives me of that?

Yeah, that's valid. I read fanfic as comfort food, so a certain level of sameness feels good to me. I do like it when a fic feels fresh in some way, but I don't read fic for New Original Takes, you know what I mean?

primary pieces of fanon for PT/TCW

oooooh that's a good question! I think you'll probably have a longer list than me, because I hadn't considered clones speaking Mando'a as fanon until you said it. Isn't that more an import from Legends?

Speaking of, that's also A Thing: some things I consider fanon - Mandalorian culture as a whole, for example - is in fact a "fandom-transmitted" amalgam of material from secondary media. Like Mando'a as a language: it's originally from Republic Commando, but then fandom adopted it, and now I'm certain that most people who use it in fic have never read those books. So, fanon or not? I say yes, but YMMV.

Anyway, some fanon (irrespective whether I like it or not):

• Fialleril's Tatooine slave culture
• Qui-Gon being Evil (abusive, bad master, etc)
• Obi-Wan being small as a kid (at least Jedi Apprentice says he's big for his age!)
• Mandalorian culture & traditions
• the relationship between Quinlan Vos and Obi-Wan
• Quinlan's personality (dubious - you could say it's from that one TCW episode, but in the comics he's a very different person, so the fact that the "playful jerk" characterization wins is fanon, IMO)
• Jon Antilles (I love blackkat! But this character is basically her OC, lol)
• Jaster Mereel (blackkat again I suspect, but I've seen him in fic by other people and there's some Legends material for him)
• Arla Fett (I say this with love; I adore her and I WILL write a fic about her, so help me gods)

[extrapenguin]

I do like it when a fic feels fresh in some way, but I don't read fic for New Original Takes, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I get it! When you click on something that promises X, you want it to be what it promised, not a super weird take that misses why you like it and/or total deconstruction.

Speaking of, that's also A Thing: some things I consider fanon - Mandalorian culture as a whole, for example - is in fact a "fandom-transmitted" amalgam of material from secondary media. Like Mando'a as a language: it's originally from Republic Commando, but then fandom adopted it, and now I'm certain that most people who use it in fic have never read those books. So, fanon or not? I say yes, but YMMV.
I guess I'm aware that it was in part from stuff in a Legends book, but it seems that I subscribe to the whole tiered canon thing, where the movies out-canon everything and TCW out-canons random legends books. And the fic is tagged with TCW, not Republic Commando, so the clones don't speak Mando'a in the canon the fic is for. So in conclusion, it's fanon for TCW, as it contradicts the canon we see there, even if it might be canon for some other piece of media. (The whole service corps and initiates aging out is also fanon for TCW, imo, since Ahsoka at 14 is said to be a bit young to be a padawan – whereas by the Jedi Apprentice canon, she'd have aged out at 13.)

Quinlan's personality (dubious - you could say it's from that one TCW episode, but in the comics he's a very different person, so the fact that the "playful jerk" characterization wins is fanon, IMO)
Quinlan, due to the nature of his job, always struck me as someone who was very hard to pin down – so he'd be several different people in different situations. As for who he is alone in the dark, I haven't consumed enough canon about him to form an opinion.

Though on the rest, I had honestly assumed there was more to e.g. Jon Antilles than just one comic where he is a random disposable dude hiding inside a cloak? Huh. Yeah, he's basically an OC. Actually, same for Quinlan Vos and his relationship with Obi-Wan – I genuinely thought there was some Legends EU material that had them interact (very plausible, as they're similar-ish in age and could've gone to some of the same classes) which I'd missed. Huh. I wonder whether this is the source of the fanon telephone? People see something and assume it's from an episode they forgot/some piece of EU stuff they haven't read.

As for things I'd label as fanon, you got the big pieces of Tatooine slave culture and Mandalorians, but if we're including characterization fanon I'd like to add:

• Padmé Amidala being a pure and wise flawless queen (whereas in canon, she's the one rushing headfirst into danger while Anakin Skywalker is advising calling for backup, and she also has a temper)


• relatedly, Obi-Wan being a flawless woobie (partially just because he's the chosen woobie and gets the woobie fic treatment, but he has a sharp tongue and a very wide streak of recklessnes)

Then there are the takes on Anakin and the Jedi Order which, uh, make it extremely clear which side of the "Anakin was born evil" vs "the Jedi are horrible abusers who ruined a child" divide the author is on. (Somehow, no-one ends up blaming Palpatine.)

[annathecrow]

tiered canon

I see what you mean. Hm, that's a thorny one, because some of us simply don't treat canon as a hard-and-fast rule. I guess people will warn about that in tags ("timeline what timeline", "Ignores XY", various jokes about canon), but not consistently...

I sometimes just decide not to use a piece of canon because it doesn't fit the story. Example: According to TCW (S04E11), Shmi and Anakin were sold to slavery after Anakin has been born. I have one fic that follows that, but another that doesn't because I wanted to write about a second-gen slave Shmi.

I don't remember if I've ever used Legends over TCW, but I would if it worked. *shrugs*

Quinlan Vos and his relationship with Obi-Wan

They do interact in Legends! In the Star Wars comics, they meet during the Stark Hyperspace War (issues 36 - 41, although I don't recommend it, that arc is boring as hell). It's just not... IDK, not fanfic-inspiring, at least to me. :D

fanon telephone

Ha, yes, absolutely! I have a few things that I used in fic, and then found out aren't actually canon. Fandom osmosis in action. You just can't double-check everything! Especially in SW - ye gads, is this canon a mess...

[extrapenguin]

tiered canon

My philosophy here is that since this is a take Lucasfilm took, if I default to the "top-level" worldbuilding and characterization takes, I'm less likely to accidentally introduce worldbuilding etc inconsistencies. (And some of the EU stuff had, uh, very bad takes on the Jedi I am 0% interested in.) If I want to intentionally substitute in another piece, then that's something I'll have thought about, basically? So it's a way of figuring out a default that has the least mismatch.

According to TCW (S04E11), Shmi and Anakin were sold to slavery after Anakin has been born.
WHAT. I don't remember that at all! I think a rewatch is in order...

(Though that does make sense considering that Anakin says that they only came to Tatooine when he was 3, all the way back in TPM. And all of everyone seems to have forgotten that too, lol.)

[annathecrow]

Anakin and Shmi trivia

I'm not surprised nobody in fandom uses it, it's extremely "blink and you miss it"! Anakin goes a bit off the rails when he learns that the Separatist General du jour is a Zygerrian, and then:

Ahsoka: "Why is he so upset?"

Obi-Wan: "Anakin has never talked about his past, has he."

Ahsoka: "Only to tell me he won't talk about it."

Obi-Wan: "As a child, Anakin and his mother was sold to slavery by the Hutts."

So, yeah! If you want to play by TCW canon, this is the Word of God.

Although, it's kind of... I still kind of suspect it's an accident born out of misremembering the movie. In TPM, Anakin says they were sold to Gardulla the Hutt, not by a Hutt. Why specify that it was the Hutts?

[extrapenguin]

Yeah, that's ... a bit weirdly phrased. Though given that it's Obi-Wan saying it, I guess you could paper it over by saying Obi-Wan got slightly the wrong idea from 9-year-old Anakin explaining it? I don't think Qui-Gon had the chance to tell him anything, and he doesn't seem to have met Shmi...

[annathecrow]

I have read only Queen's Shadow so far, but I liked it. Prose-wise it feels a bit clunky, the kind of writing that makes me think "I've read fanfics better than that", but that might just as well be simplified language meant for younger readers. The world building (and relationship building) is great, though, and I loved Padmé, Sabé, and all the handmaidens.

[yourlibrarian]

Good to know!